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FinalFen    21

Hello everyone, today I have a really lazy day at work, so decided to share with you couple of my ideas regarding how to make a succesfull l2 server nowadays. You may agree/dissagree with part of it, you may agree/dissagree with everything I said. That's fine, I might be completely wrong when sharing my ideas, BUT I'm 95% convinced that if we launch a "standard" classic server with x3-5 rates, it won't last longer then couple of months (like it did in the past), therefor we should brainstorm how to deal with this issue while we still have the time.


I do realise that this is humongous wall of text that that most (all?) won't read it, but it's mainly aimed at giving my point of view to Supreeme because he's doing a lot of heavy lifting when working alone on the server and I wouldn't want to see all this work go down the drain.


Ok so what's the biggest problem that most of nowadays l2 servers have ?

- A big player base at the grand openning, decreasing to almost nothing over couple of weeks/months.


Why is that ? Does it mean that players don't want to play l2 anymore ?

- Nope, if they didn't want to play L2 we wouldn't have so many players during the grand openings


Does it mean that "Classic setup" is simply bad and offered gameplay/mechanics are unacceptable by players?

- Nope, most of people who join classic servers nowadays, are experienced players who done their research, have long l2 experience and they know what they came for


So whats the catch ? Why people leave the game they want to play ?

- In my opinion the issue lays in the outdated progression scheme of the game and complete dominance of orginised groups over casual/solo players

Average profile of a gamer nowadays changed a lot. People spend a lot less time playing just 1 product. They often ike playing moba, shooters and strategy games at the same time, meaning they invest a lot less time on just 1 product. This isn't a problem in mentioned type of games because these games have their ranking systems. They tell the players:

> Ok so you have 1h a day to play the game? No problem mate, we will find you peoploe who spend similar ammount of time and have similar to yours experience/skill level in the game to make it feel fair for you

So even when investing little time into a particular gaming product, players can still PLAY THE GAME and not feel like because of their casual approach they are missing on a big portion of the gameplay offered by the product. They are satisfied, happey and continue playing particular product. Even after getting bored, usually not long passes untill they start thinking about the good old memories from that game and decide to comeback. When they do so, matchmaking system again cares about players gaming experience and attempt to match him with players of simiar skill level rather than players who created an account at the same time.


Now having above in mind, let's look what kind of narration our Lineage2 classic does with it's players.

Oh hello, you are a casual player and have only 2-3 hours to play during a day ?

> Don't worry my friend, that's not a problem, simply join us. Everyone starts from scratch, some will group as 9 and we will ensure that they will do everything you do but 10 times faster/easier and with less effort but don't worry, in 2 years you will reach the late game and start PvPing! (unless server dies before <evil laugh>)


A glimps of how a gaming experience of a casual player in lineage 2 classic looks nowadays:


How l2 looks for casual players and/or people who didn`t manage to gather a stable party before server start


So a player joins, he appears in the Talking Islans and start farming. It feels nice, character has couple of good moves, leveling speed is quite pleasant. After some time it starts to slow down, but then player drops/buys a new weapon and again boosts up his progressino speed. After a day of playing he reaches level 20. Has the feeling of achievement so he continues playing the next day. Leveling speed slows down by quite a bit but it's even good because before it was simply too fast.

Around level 27-30, when having no buffs is the first time when it feels like game is starting to slow down a bit too much. Exp spots aren't that perfect, there are a lot of people, you are missing the spawns to fight so you go a bit deeper. Start fighting 1-2 mobs and suddenly a wild elven knight appears gathering 20 mobs from all around the area bringing them to his party where 2 nuker destroy the train in 10s obtaining exp equivalent to what you would gain when playing 20 minutes. It's the first WTF moment. At this time you are getting verbally harassed as well that if you don't leave the spot/mobs you will get killed, so you can either get killed, or be forced to leave the location and wander around (sometimes for coupleteen minutes trying to find a not discouraging farming spot). 

As time passes your leveling speed drops even more and all the good spots which usually would help you counter-act that, are being taken by some orginised groups of players who gain massive benefits for which they dont' have to work for at all <-- just run around gathering mobs and then spam aoe nuke (10s of grind, 30 second resting). So the player starts struggling, he's lacking good equpiment, good farming spots. Today he logged in, struggled for 2 hours just to jump from 32 to 34 lvl. The next day he see's some guys rambling around on the global chat how after killing a Raid Boss they gained half a level and a D greade Bow in a mattter of 10 minutes so he says to himself: ok so after running from spawn to spawn, kitting and killing mobs for 1 hour, I'm earning half a level, while some random group of people goes to a RB clicks F1-attack and goes to make a coffee and after 10 minutes of gameplay they gain same ammount of exp + a full drop worth more than everything I managed to acquire till this point ? Wtf is wrong with this game? So player starts trying to create an RB group, it's hard, lacking supports plenty of random people don't have good equpiment and classes, nobod wants to communicate or form a party, but he manages to do it. He looks for RB's but all are killed, wastes half an hour untill he finally found something allive, his random group comes to fight the RB and then suddenly an orginised CP comes kills them and finishes the RB. Player asks to himself: why can't I have the access to the gameplay that a small ammount of people controlls without even earning/working hard for it? And why can't I do anything about it?

So he continues playing, after a huge struggle he gets to that lvl 40. He spends entire day doing retarded and meaningless quests. After level 40 he continues the struggle. RB's are taken by other people. Players are having 2 times better equipement. Afk dwarfs/spoilers are earning 7 times as much as he does while farming. He watches people constantly outleveling him. Some day after 3h grind he notices he earned 80% of next level. After 3h of grind (his entire gaming day) on the high 40s he couldn't get even 1 lvl and there are like 30 levels more to go. On the other hand he notices how other people are already in high 50s or low 60s. He says to himself "I know I'm not playing that much, but even if I dropped my job and played 8h a day I wouldn't be anywhere near the place where they are now". And that's the moment when he realises that playing without an orginised group and doing Raid Bosess is meaningless. It will take you 2 years of spending your entire gaming time just on this one product, to get to the high 60s that will actually allow you to at least have a chance at fighting in mass PvPs vs people who are already maxed out without even putting much effort into it. Day after player uninstalls Lineage 2.

Couple of months later, player is borred, can't find any decent game to play so he's like hmmmmmm what about lineage2 ? He checks the online on the server and notices it's 1/6 of what it was. He checks the forum and notices some flame wars between couple CP`s and a group of people crying on the forums that they are getting pked and griefed on by other peoploe heavily outgearing/outllving them just to prevent them from progressing and catching up. Then player tries to remind  himself of what are his memories of this server? How the gameplay looks ? Ah yes 3h of grinding to not even get a level, while other just group up when he's at work, and press F1 on a RB to get same result. He instantly abandons the comeback to Lineage2 server idea and proceed to launch LoL....

The end


Ok here are my ideas of what's wrong with this game/classic setup that needs to be tweaked/fixed in order to prolong the life of a l2 server:


1. RAID BOSSes - extremely valuable resources, very limited giving to the owners of it, extreme value for almost no time or effort investment not requireing any player skills to execute


> Players who can't fight them (because of various reasons) are getting discouraged from the regular gameplay/grinding (their grind seems meaningless/worthless when comparing efficiency)

> Promotes unhealthy/annoying/tedious/boring gameplay:

  • checking different RB spots (meaningless running around the map/having characters made just to check different spots)
  • spamming 1 button while fighting RB, Harassment of weaker players(groups) who wanted to contest RB at the same time
  • controlling respawn timers - killing them so they appear when some simply can't play (at work/at school) etc
  • wasting sometimes coupleteen minutes just to run from spot to spot - annoying, has little to do with a real gameplay

> Very limited ammount/access - small number of RB compared to the playerbase size - most will never have a chance to use this resource

> Creates big level/equpiment gap between players and then only increases the difference - if someone is stronger than others he will get even stronger and wider the difference - "counter-comeback mechanics"


> Remove regular(not EPIC) RB at the start of the server

  • once server economy/levels start to grow and market will start start to fill up with full drops, RB`s could be turn on again as a gap closer for players who joined the server later on

> Leave RB but change their rewards so they offer no usable ITEMS/EXP - won't increase gap between players

  • RB`s could drop some visual/cosmetic items with no battle stats (although those would prob be better of saved for the donations)
  • RB`s could drop clan oriented items - items required to purchase new clan skills, Proof of Blood, items required to buy stuff at Clan Halls
  • RB`s could drop some Quality of life (QoL) imroving stuff: tokens exchanged for special teleporting zones from Gatekeepers, temporary inventory increase, reduction of taxes when buying items in a town, buff scrolls etc


2. SMALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE (CP's/clans) CONTROLLING VERY VALUABLE RESOURCES (efficient farming spots, RB's) giving them huge advantage over unorginised players. Lack of comeback mechanics continously increasing gap


> Players who can't fight them are getting discouraged from the regular gameplay/grinding (their grind seems meaningless/worthless when comparing efficiency)

> Small part of community (2-4 CP) limits  the gameplay of a big but unorginised/spread part of the community

  • Basically 9 man group can scare off dozens (depends on a community size) of players over period of time who while solo/in a small party wanted to farm on a particular spot
  • Players can't access areas on which they would like to farm
  • Players can't access equally valuable resources as others - creates feeling of unfariness, creates big lvl/equpiment GAP

> Once a group starts claiming most valuable zones, she will most likely always be stronger and continue controling mentioned areas because of lack of comeback mechanics in this game.

> 9-man farming parties often promote a bad/unhealthy gameplay/behaviour where only 3-4 people are required to play/farm and rest just afk/rests/play on another account, while in smaller groups everyone has to grind during their entire farming session


> Equalize the efficiency of different farming zones  to make them more attractive and to make sure everyone finds a spot for himself

  • Add additional mob spawns to a rarelly populated farming zones
  • Incrase HP and at the same time EXP given by some mobs in unefficient farming areas

> Decrease the total EXP that a bigger party gets and/or Increase the EXP penalty when being in bigger party

  • Make a scheme that promotes a bit more smaller groups 3-5 man (it's very hard to make a full group out of random people, while 3-5 man is doable)
  • Nerf a bit EXP that a 9 man groups gain - they already have the benefits of being safer, having more people to talk to (social benefits), having the ability to rest during a party etc...

> Decrease the ammount of mobs you can aggro so it forces more players in a party to actively play

  • I.E.: each character can aggro up to: 7 mobs x1 HP, 5 mobs x2 HP, 3 mobs x3+ HP
  • aggroing 1 additional MOB over the limit, unaggros 1 previous ones
  • additional mechanic could be made, when once you have max mob aggro limit and forceaggro another mob (provoke him by attacking/debuffing etc) then 1 of previous would un-aggro but if you had max mob aggro limit and didn't forceaggro but just run near an aggressive mob <- he wouldn't aggro on you <===== this mechanic would be to prevent wanky mechanics where mobs would start loosing aggro in random places because we ran past another aggro mob
  • this would make it so more players would be involved in making the trains, even nukers would/could have to help and gather these extra 2-3 mobs, which couldn't be aggroed by SWS/BD and if someone was lazy and wanted to rest, party would jusst be slightly less efficient





> Once players reach 50s, leveling speed drops heavily greatly discouraging less hardcore/casual gamers, because sometimes even after couple (2-4) hours of grind each day, they notice almost no progression (especially when not having the luxury of playing with CP and doing trains)

> Such leveling curve guarantees that late game won't be achievable for casual players (Sizeable part of community) even after a year of farming

> Lack of players who reach late game, means lack of players who are PvPing (we all know that PvP against 10 lvl higher ppl is pointless), meaning Hardcore Grinders will be lacking actuall enemies and get bored what can result in:

  • harassing and killing a lot lower players for no real reason <- resulting in them leaving the server
  • limitation of parts of core gameplay: mass PvPs (9v9-18v18 isn`t a mass pvp in my vocabulary) for EPIC RB's, castles, playerbase for interesting tournaments
  • leaving the server


> Change the Experience tables so there isn't that heavy increase of EXP required for next level after lvl 50s. My suggestion would be:

  • 50-60 should be 2 times slower than 40-50 (if you need 2h of grind to level from 45 to 46, then it should take 4 hours of grind to level from 56 to 57 and 8h of grind to level from 66 to 67)
  • 60-70 should be 4 times slower than 40-50
  • 70-74 since it won't be necessary/game breaking untill S grades come into play, can be like current high levels (I would probably make it 40 times slower than 40-50) - grind fest so that there's is something to do when you are bored - end game, hard to achieve goal to give them hardcore gamers a purpose to live and play ;)

sorry but I don't remember the flat EXP values so the exact changes would definitely have to be thought out by someone smarter than me :) Just pointing out what kind of proportions I would keep




> this was mentioned already in different subjects but I want stress this point out and when saying "late game content", I don't mean having max lvl and a OE`d top A equpiment. Late game content to me means having 68+level and A grade equpiment allowing you to at least somewhat fight against maxed out characters during the mass PvP's like EPIC and Siege's


5. UNHEALTHY for the gameplay CLASSES/MECHANICS DISTRUPTING THE ECONOMY and/or promoting passive/lack of gameplay


(personally I don't understand the purpose of a Warsmiths and Spoilers in Lineage2 from a gameplay experience point of view - pick a semi-useless PvP wise - yes i know they can stun but why would you pick them for PvP over Gladiator/Dark Avenger/Warlord - class in order to perform dumb actions -> afk on the market - or use "spoil" on a mob and pull out a recepie for a bow out of his ass)

> classes like warsmith/bounty hunter promotes boring and meaningless gameplay -> warsmith afk in town and do nothing -> bounty hunter, cast 2 abilities that make no logical sense and gather items of huge value

> warsmith and spoilers are definitions of BOX characters <- there is probably like 2% of players who WANT to play these classes actively rest are just clan boxes or players who play it because friends/CP/clan NEEDED it

> having almost entire item crafting system dependant on a warsmith class creates a lot of annoyance and risks:

  • unorginised players will often have huge issues in crafting particular items because of problems in finding a crafter
  • lack of consumable crafters at certain hours can completely distrupt other people gameplay (someone logs in to play at night when everyone is sleeping, server crashes, restart, no shops online <- you can't farm shots <- cant play/farm for the most part)
  • decrease in server population or some random stuff like vacations, national holidays can easily create a shortage in the production/supply of important stuff

> Because both classes are almost useless in terms of late game PvP (excluding SIEGE golem<- but even then it's usually just a boxed character) in 90% of cases they are played stricktly as a CLAN/CP boxes. These groups/parties can easily order 2 of their members to afk in the party, while exping on the other game client their WS/BH box

  • Creates huge economical gap/distruptancy between such groups and casual players who can't afk exp their mains while actively leveling up crafter/spoiler


> Add in each town a NPC crafter, crafting ANY consumable/material item for a LOW fee and equpiment for a REASONABLY HIGH fee (B grade weapon -3kk (?)/ armor part-300k(?))

  • NPC crafters should already know all the RCPs without the need of wasting RCP "to learn it" before actually crafting an item
  • Players who still want to gain economical edge/save on not having to pay NPCs could just make WS anyway, but the profits wouldn't be that astronomical
  • Would remove the annoyance factor when players can't find a crafter willing to craft required for them goods (crafting shots sometimes is a nightmare)
  • Would finally make the no grade/d/c grade crafting a thing, because players would always have a crafter ready to create a unpopular low tier equpiment part for them ad hoc

> Remove bountyhunters (Ye I realise it won't happen, but I'll write it for the luls :P)

> Change how bounty hunter works

  • In order to sweep a target BH should be obligated to inflict over 50% of the dmg to a MOB (he should earn/work for the spoil not just watch how CP party wrecks a train and then proceeds to become a W. Buffet in a second)  otherwise sweep shouldn't be available




> Class quests have no real purpose in this game other than artificially forcing the user to waste his time on a completely unpleasant tasks

  • creates a lot of annoyance and prevents players from actually playing the game like they want to, and instead forces them to run around the map in random places

> These type of quests often come in pair with the issue of having multiply bugs preventing from finishing them

> Such quests are additional barrier for newer players who might not know them, or played on server where you could buy class change items

  • forces some players to look for online guides which sometimes might be updated createing unnecessary game barriers
  • creates great annoyance when players are looking for some quest monsters whose spawn could slightly change as time passes/or well implemented in a wrong spot


> Remove Class Quests or make them optional

> Add class change items buyable from grocers in towns (for a rather low price: 1st class change - 50k(?), 2nd class change 3 x 100k(?)

> Optional: replace class quests with a generic quest where once player tells an npc he wants to change a class, he receives a quest to kill XXX(?) mobs (no matter the type) of similar to him level (don't know how hard it would be to code this). Could but don't have to add additional requirements to make it more demanding i.e.:

  • have to be without a party
  • Cannot receive any buffs from other characters
  • Needs to fight yellow or red mobs only
  • Cannot use shots


7. if you weren't at the start of the server YOU WILL NEVER COMPENSATE FOR THAT


> Clan Halls shouldn't be premanent since it discourages new groups/clans who might consider joining a server



> each clan hall should be owned only for a period of 3(?) months

  • who gains the privilage to rent a clan hall could be decided based on a clan tournament where people who managed to get highest in the tournament rooster gain the ability to choose which clan halls they want to rent


8. LONG TRAVEL TIMES and limited gatekeeper teleportation capabilities


> Sometimes running to a farming spot can take even over 5-10 minutes (i.e. EG) during which player is basically dying due to boredom

  • creates annoyance
  • Artificially takes away players (often very limited) playing time 

> Gatekeeper has a very limited ammount of teleporting spots

  • when traveling to different towns often you have to click 20 times and travel through 5 different locations before you acutally get where you want (can take even over minute)


> We should add additional teleportation spots to some well known and liked locations

> for 1-2 minutes after teleporting via gatekeeper characters should receive a gatekeepers Wind Song and Wind Walk2 buff (so basically we would a temporary mvoement speed increase to get faster to our spot) which would be automatically lost upon being attacked, targeted by a MOB or when walking in range of 1800(?) near a flagged/PK character

> When teleporting via Gatekeeper there should be an option "OTHER TOWNS" after pressing which we would receive a full list of all towns that you can teleport to so i.e. you could TP directly from Talking Islands to Hunters Village (factoring increased teleportation cost of course)



I know that a lot if not all of my observations/suggestions might look terryfing to plenty of old veteran players but the truth is that Lineage 2 never was a perfect game. It's a great game but nontheless has lots of concept/design flaws which in my opinion are the main reason to why people who waited years for a particular server, are leaving after playing for couple weeks/months. I do realise as well that many of mentioned issues aren't a problem for guys who already have their CP and will overcome them without a problem, but you gota remember that you are a minority. Most of server community always consists of solo players or small groups of 2-4 friends who get really demotivated when seeing how discriminated they are compared to full CPS. If you ignore their needs, you will suddenly end up playing on a 100 online server.

In the past I was a hardcore grinder as well, and was spending 6-7 hours a day grinding my stuff to pwn these noobs who suck because they have too little time to play the game. Back then I enjoyed as well wrecking people because they didn't have anthy/valky/zaken and strong augmentations on their gear, but the truth is that nowadays gamers are different. There is a lot more casual players who are the core of the playerbase and if you discourage them in the early or mid game, they will leave without a hasitation because hey: It's just a freaking old ass game made by a bunch of Koreans, why would I put myself into this suffer grind watching other kiddos(CP/orginised clans) put a lot less effort into the grind but benefiting 9821419824 times more than I do.

Edited by FinalFen
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Supreme    345

AWESOME Review - Lineage II in a nutshell.

Although doesn't it changes much the low rate marketing with a new chronicle (Saviors - Zaken) where most of Warpers wants to try it from 0 as a new thing without modifications?

BUT i know by my own footsteps as a player (while testing stuff from official) that everything you said ABOVE was TRUE.

In terms of League of Legends progression it really makes Lineage II a different game type with a re-freshed gameplay and stability.

Im also looking far more into the future with this topic. Could we start as this where as you mentioned the vast majority of old L2'ers will feel like a different game i want full retail like i'm not joining...

But that's the case where L2 newcomers leave to League of Legends due to the amount of attachment they have to put to simply become stronger.

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gszell91    6

Idk man... on 1 hand i like what u say and i aggree with that but in a lot of cases i disaggree.

(Numbers not in order you wrote, but just how i think them out :D )

1. CPs/groups have advantage over casuals: yes and the problem is they abuse it and they even flame! :D
If i was GM for me its instaban, wouldnt care if its biggest clan or what: kill 20 lvls lower and flame = 1 week ban; enjoy shithead.

I mean who wants to play with ppl like that.

Or you can try something like newbie PK protection extended to not only low lvls but any1. Lets say you had that buff, than you couldnt be PKed by some1 15lvls higher than you.

And all couldtake that buff, becoz lets say you are 45lvl, but some 76lvl archers are killing you in ivory crater. Not with this buff, they cant anymore.
So basically just extend the same buff that newbies can claim from the Gatekeeper anyways.


2. Shops dont disconect after a server restart, this is not L2 interlude anymore. Welcome to classic.

3. I wouldnt delete the crafter and spoilers from the game. I was main spoiler, i liked it, it was kinda awful in PvP but something for something. Lot of money for not afk farming but active grinding all day long. Its not at all an afk process but i farmed alone so maybe thats why.

Btw the NPC creating materials at a fixed low fee already exists: it is called Blacksmith (tho it cant make B grade)

4. Gatekeepers are limited: aggreed, wouldnt say a word for a few more TP locations

5. Class quests: aggreed, personally i never do them just donate or whatever...

6. Raid boss advantage for groups: well if you make a 3x drop rate for monsters, and a 1x for bosses, than the advantage is not so big. The really big problem for servers is that politics are fked up. Like L2 Red we had 3 of the biggest clans ally together and just beat every1. I mean there wasnt any not even potential enemy for them whatsoever.

They walked into Core room and killed Core. No1 came there to contest. No1 even thought about it happening. Very few ppl even know other than themselves that they are killing it. That was the time that we kinda realised that L2 Red was over. So maybe Supreme should talk to clan/ally leaders and have a say in politics.


caps off... btw: increase alliance size from maximum 3 to 4-5. That can help also.

7.I think that the best advice that is possible to do is the party XP bonus rework.
Give little to no bonus to big parties and give much higher bonus for parties 2-5 members.

I dont know what the actual numbers are for bonus but i think leave solo players as they are (i mean players without party at all), and give a really decent bonus for parties with 2-5 members.
Like this:

2members = 40%

3 members = 50%

4 members = 60%

5 members = 70%

6   =40%

7 = 35%

8 = 30%

9 = 25%

Just as example.

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Supreme    345

I read everything,

About the Clan/ally leaders i've always asked that when I see its necessary.

Off course in a way is interacting with gameplay for some players, but im not changing anything, im just asking.

That's why i've always said Server get's killed by Community actions.

But there are ways in which i can restrict / limit / control everyone in which Privacy Policy and User Agreement will cover it for me


Here's another Review from a formal cl: https://lightenia.wordpress.com/lineage-2/review/

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FinalFen    21



Ye, I'm aware of the issue of experienced players blindly screaming "I want no midifications!" and I'm happy to hear you realise that too.

Basically we have a problem of two groups saying that they have completely opposite needs: hardcore grinders who want vanila servers AND casual gamers who are simply looking for a pleasent gameplay in a Lineage 2 world. One group can't survive without another.

The funny fact is that in reality mentioned groups want something similar: a stable and fun environment where they can grind, evelup and progress. My solution on the subject of "people screaming, no modifications!" is to simply not communicate most of the smaller tweaks you would like to implement.

I mean if you wanted to make it so Bounty Hunter needs to inflict 50% of the dmg in order to sweep a mob, that's obviously a big and very unintuitive thing so it would have to be explained very well


if you wanted to add something small like additional spawns (of monsters that already exist in particular area) in order to "FIX" some completely unplayable zones which nobody ever enters due to how little spawns are there, then in my opinion that doesn't need to be announced/mentioned.

Most of veteran players won't enter these areas anyways because they know there is nothing waiting for them in a classic setup, while other players (casuals) who are looking for a decent spot to farm, but got kicked out of other places by CP's would wander around and discover a lot of very fun places to farm. Nobody would loose on it because both sides would get similary effective farming zones, vet's would have their official spawn zones in the usuall grind zones, while casual players would have their own places allowing them to have a pleasant gaming experience. In the end L2 farming is about fighting mobs, not running miles to reach another mob.


Matter of communicating changes to the community:


1 more thing regarding dealing with community which is always almost completely ignored by/on L2 servers and which I would like to mention here is lack of a

good communication habbits. Plenty of servers are doing different modifications and players are like "why do you change that ? L2 is awesome game and you are trying to break it". Why players are so negative to such changes ? Because they don't understand/realise the reasoning. Let's be honest 80-90% of L2 grinders, didn't play too many RPG games other than L2 and since L2 for them is all about whacking same mobs over and over again, they aren't doing too much thinking on their own. MOBA games are doing a very good job at explaining/educating their community why particular change has to be made. They are balancing stuff all the time, 24/7 and often completely  destroying/changing characters some players liked to play, but still most of the time their players aren't quiting and are accepting the changes.


In my opinon, Supreem you should create a forum section "BALANCE DISCUSSION" where you could ask community about their opinions regarding diferent balance changes/ideas. i.E. you are considering disabling "spoil festival" skill so you create a new topic with a catchy title like: "SPOIL FESTIVAL DISTRUPTING THE ECONOMY BALANCE OF THE SERVER" which refers only to 1 particular issue (so not a thread where you list up 5 problems and throw 10 solutions - 1 thread, 1 issue). 

Then you write in short, what kind of change/fix/tweak (should avoid using the term "modification" :)) you are thinking of and bellow put couple of bullets explaining why particular thing is an issue and how would your solution fix it (you could then add additional arguments if some good will be thrown in the thread by rest of players). Then in the thread players could start sharing their opinions and ideas regarding particular change <-- and that's where the magic starts to happen:

Such thread isn't about players giving you the idea or ways of solving a matter (because in most casses you as a DEV probably already know bout it) but about players educating each other. There will be always plenty of people voting for a change and plenty against, they will start to communicate, discuss. Some will flame and should be banned of the discussion, but some will throw out really good arguments and put them in a very persuative words of which you wouldn't think of on your own, making it that much easier to implement a change. Additionally these arguments won't be coming from the DEV (about which plenty of salty players think he's clueless by default) but from other players making it sound trust-worthy.


Anyways more on the subject: Core to making all of the changes/tweaks is to make people understand that:

  • in current CLASSIC setup 95% casual players on a private server will leave before achieving 60 lvl <-- making any server slowly die
  • without casual players, veterans won't have enemies to fight against (VETs won't have noobs to prove their prowess on) <- no real, long-term purpose to farm
  • small-moderate balancing of farming efficiency of: solo <-> 2-5 man parties <-> 9 man parties progression still won't diminish/ofset the gap between playing 2-3 hours and 6-8 hours a day, so nobody has to worry that their extra time investment will get nulified by discussed changes
  • economy needs to be adjusted because l2 economy is a completely unbalanced crap
  • classes like bounty hunter/warsmith have to be tweaked in a way which promotes active gameplay rather then being an obligatory box character in order to not fall too far behind compared to the top CP's/CLANs


And I strongly doubt that trying to communicate with allies/clans in order to mantain server balance is a solution to all of the issues. You will always find some trolls/griefers who won't listen and be a cause of dozens casual players leaving the server. Some semi-automated solutions have to be made to adjust unhealthy behaviours. I.e. making global timers informing when an EPIC gona respawn and fixing those respawns so they spawn at the time of biggest online on the server. Giving players a buff (usable once a day) that make's it impossible for other players to attack you for 1-1.5h from the activation. Greatly decreasing EPICs drop rate if there was no PvP prior to an ally taking it down etc.... I think it all can be done with just a small ammount of brainstorming, communities good will and Supreem's scripting skillZ

On 14.07.2017 at 7:02 PM, gszell91 said:

3. I wouldnt delete the crafter and spoilers from the game. I was main spoiler, i liked it, it was kinda awful in PvP but something for something. Lot of money for not afk farming but active grinding all day long. Its not at all an afk process but i farmed alone so maybe thats why.

Btw the NPC creating materials at a fixed low fee already exists: it is called Blacksmith (tho it cant make B grade)

You are the example of how Bounty Hunter should be played (in order to not make this class unbalanced) and I have nothing against that kind of gameplay and wouldn't want to affect it. You pick weaker class, have to work hard alone, but the benefits of spoiling mobs rewards you for your efforts.

Sadly you are just a rare example of a good roleplayer. 95% of bounty hunters on the server will be CP boxes. They won't be played actively but simply cast 2 spoil festivals every 1.5 minute (when train arrives) and sweep some mobs which they didn't damage at all. That's why I would like to add the obligatory requirement of having to inflict at least 50% of the dmg to a MOB in order to activate sweeper condition. This wouldn't impact players like you almost at all, while would GREATLY diminish income of most clans/CPs who already have a big advantage <- and make your playstyle actually help you to soften up the GAP between your solo gameplay and their 9 man training.

Regarding NPC crafting materials, ye I know about him, but if I'm correct he requires you to waste RCP which each craft (which is insane) and doesn't craft shots making him useless for the most part. Another storry is the lack of A-B crafting.

Edited by FinalFen
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gszell91    6

1 thing to mention tho, when i started on that server at grand opening, i was unemployed and found job later, after like 1 month into server.

So i was able to be active. You want ppl to play spoilers actively, but they dont have time :D

I was able to get filthy rich quickly, becoz i was greedy, didnt rly help my "clan" before contributing to clan hall (probably mistake on my part), and i was the first in all spoiling.

Karmian gloves fabric HUGE advantage, i was the first, then later plated leather gaiters, then when i got strong enough then pl armor parts (from dragon bearer groups ... soloing :D it was fun lol)

And i played like 10-12 hours a day, most ppl wont have that time.


In order for ppl to pick a Bounty Hunter (or really any class) to play as main it needs to be useful. For example spoilers are awesome - in close combat. It has a lot of HP, heavy armor, no magic resist skill tho, but the hammer crush and the buff-removing stun also, and these are a lot of dmg and stun. IF the spoiler can get close it will own mages/archers.

But it cant EVER EVER EVER get close for gods sake... or just rarely based on some smart play.

If the spoiler doesnt have a rush/demolition impact or whatever its called or godforbid: Hide :D It will be useless.

When i think of a character i want to play something that is useful, meaning this:

 - can farm solo if needed

 - can be useful for groups possibly

 - can do SOMETHING of use in PVP

 - can do at least something in olympiad

Bounty Hunter does absolutely nothing in open field pvp. It can win in cruma tower, it can win later in AL where u cant run away without agroing 99999999 mobs on you, and maybe in TOI also. But still its slow. But in reality mages that are assholes will PK you in 5 shots, just before you reach up to them. If they are slightly higher lvl than u and equal geared.

If that doesnt change, it will be just a frustrating thing to play BH. Especially when u realize that all ur money is worth not much, becoz higher gear is crafted and not bought on market.

Same goes for Prophet. Id love to play a damn prophet main... but it cant farm alone. Now it cant do anything on oly either coz no mana burn, no erase, no nothing. Ffs...

Id play paladin, or elf knight, or darkelf knight. Maybe i will play SK becoz thats reasonable at least, but the other 2: pala and TK are just bad. And i dont like dark avenger...

Id play warlock, becoz i like that but honestly... a summoner that cant summon friend... god please.  And than we have summon in goddard patch, probably months fater opening, we still dont have any party buffs, meaning parties dont care bout me (ok, im a solo guy mostly anyways + Kai the cat is strong, so i can solo strong mobs with 1 boxed support. but still its betterif its useful for something in party)

I wouldnt mind playing main BD/SWS if it was able to do anything... but it cant. It doesnt even have heavy armor mastery post lvl40... like cmon every class has armor mastery after 40 as well... they only have magic resist. There is 1 tiny use if agro cancels spellcasting (as it should), then its somewhat useful. But still, not 1 skill for solo farming, weak dmg, decreasing pdef for fighting mobs...

Anyways if u add just 1 skill to bounty hunter ( eg.: rush) and buff the one that heals you when u get attacked slightly at least, then i will play BH probably. Otherwise i dont think id play it again.

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Pilot    3

We will cater to newcomers to the game or to the grind, trust us. Some events will be aimed at those people. But we won't modify our legit files. If we did we would be just another basic private. Like .club is with java changes.

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Spartan    1
On 26/8/2017 at 8:02 AM, Pilot said:

We will cater to newcomers to the game or to the grind, trust us. Some events will be aimed at those people. But we won't modify our legit files. If we did we would be just another basic private. Like .club is with java changes.

totally right ....i hope everything you say everything you do and will do to be permanent and not casual 

best regards

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