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FinalFen last won the day on November 9 2017

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About FinalFen

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  1. Hello guys, I've tackled this issues already couple of times, here and there, but usually it wasn't strictkly connected to the thread subject or was hidden behind a wall of text (I'm really good at those) so I decided today is a time to spend a moment on discussing the "balance & custom" part of the server (but the main reason is that Today I simply have a lazy day at work :f). So... I always loved L2 game concept and plenty of mechanics while at the same time almost equally hard hated the in-game balancing of classes done by Koreans. Let's be honest, L2 has literally no balance. In every class archetype (archer/dagger/buffer/nuker/tank/bard) there are classes stricktly better, stricktly worse and sometimes even stricktly useless. Lets look at the classic tanks: DA is IMBA to the extreemes in both farming and PvP - on the other hand TK is a complete crap weak and boring to play Lets look at the classic nukers: Necro is IMBA (and always was) to the extreemes in both farming and PvP - on the other hand sorc always at a dissadvantage outside of fighting bugs and plants ... Lets look at the classic archers: PR is OP as fock (especially because of the fatal counter) - on the other hand SR was always the most handicapped of all the archers Below are couple of reason to why I believe that customizing the class balance is justifieable: L2 has a lot of very easy to notice issues in the balancing department while at the same time it's very easy to analyze and identify the main reason of why particular class is simply too good or too bad. It seems that that it's very easy to tackle the issues because since 80% of class skills are usually shared between all of the archetype's it's obvious that it's usually just the couple additional skills that are creating the problem. Last but not least most of obviously wrongly balanced classes are known to all of us so you don't have to be a vet to realize whose power level is simply wrong and why it's like that So my/thread question is do you guys really believe that taking things into our(DEVs) own hands and balancing just couple of classes just to enchance the gaming experience is wrong and unhealthy for the game/server? I feel like everyone around (other servers) is afraid of doing so, just because of the fact that those who are against it, are usually the same people who scream the most/the loudest. I doubt that making changes like i.e. limitting transfer pain max level so that necro compared to a regular summoner would share only 30% of his dmg would enable anyones ragemode OR that if you forced DA to first land a hit with a panther in order to enable usage a horror on the target would trigger someone into saying that DEV's destroyed the PvP/class. I feel that small changes made here and there, 1 at a time might not trigger the ragekids while actually: making the PvP more interesting diversyfing class population (instead of 70% of nukers being a necro and 5% of daggers being plains walkers we could have a more equall distribution) limit the frustration occuring when you are killed by classes which due to balancing blindness are unkillable to others make a trademark for WARPGATE - a reason for people to not look at it as a iffy l2 club clone or just another 2.0 classic server At the end I'll just share 1 observation that I have after talking with multiply people that played C4-C6 or newer/later chronicles: According to most people PvP on the non-clasic chronicles was more interesting than it is now. It seems that most people who are against what Koreans did with L2 after c4-c6 as main reason of their frustration point out the changes in the farming/char developing department. Unneccessary s80/s84/dynasty/crapstuff90 equip, stupid quests artificially shrinking the char developing part of the game and making people jump straight into the late game content, dumb future classes is what pissed most of mentioned people. I've never heared anyone saying: uh oh they ruined the game because this class had too many activables skills to use or that class had too "hard" PvP. Anyways this is a DISCUSSION thread. I do realize that 99,9% of people won't agree with me and that's completely fine, but if you do so then please try at least share some constructive arguments to why you are against instead of giving bland statements - no! Maybe you will convince me and save the world from the wall of text invasion!
  2. FinalFen


    Gota admit that @fodemhouse got some valid points there. I'm playing on classic club since like 3 months. Since 2 months I'm all the time farming in a CP 3h+ a day and 5h+ on weekends and I'm 69. So from my experience I can say that even semi-casual players can definitely play on rates x3 and get decent levels in reasonable ammount of time but ... game mechanics/PvP balance are pretty much making those levels garbage tier. I've learned it the hard way that 8 lvls difference on classic makes you invulnurable against lower players. The fact that you have 0 chance to land a stun/debuff and enemy lands 100% of their stuff on you, was something I definitely expected. It was somewhat similar on c3-c6 servers (maybe not as extremee (0% vs 100%) but similar) but the crap with doing half of your normal dmg when someone is being high lvl is freaking terrible. Classic rate x3 experience: So based on that experience I would like to backup @fodemhouse doubts. I feel like rates x3 with this type of pvp balance won't let any new server survive for too long. I mean getting to lvl 70 isn't that terrible but at the same time it means nothing when lots of people already achieved lvl 76 (and there are always couple of these nolife account sharing CP's who will get there twice as fast as you). On the other hand getting form 68 to 78 lvl on x3 is freaking ridiculous with these EXP tables (at lvl 69 I'm leveling around 3 times slower than on 63 and it only gets worse as levels add up). I'm not saying rates x3 are bad, just that the time/farm required for players to start PvP'ing and having any sort of chances to compete against 76+ characters is too insane. Personally I believe that this crap change with players dealing less dmg the higher the level gap is the core of the issue, but I know what's your approach to custom changes and that you probably won't change it. I feel like this issue should be tackled when launching WarpGate since I don't believe that you will attract a big enough group of players while making sort of a l2-club-clone (similar setup). My opinion is that you need to make quiet balance changes without sharing them to the community (so you won't trigger the "omg I want vanila not private shiet" brainless farmers) because classic setup is promoting nolife players as hard as it is punishing/demotivating semi-causal ones => highway to low online. And trust me, it's usually not the vets who donate the most over longer period of time. Last but not least there actually aren't any sort of gap closers in the game. Once you get over 52 lvl and the achievement bonuses end, you realise that people who are ahead will get even further ahead up to the moment where they reach some kind of hard cap/max out (so pretty much never :)). This is yet another reason to why combination of these rates and pvp mechanics scares away plenty of potential players. Final note: notice that my gaming experience (very long time untill you can start participating in PvP against older players) comes from a established server where plenty of high lvl zones (i.e. ABG) are mostly left to non-factor players. Now imagine the struggle you would have to go through on a fresh server where every spot is getting overpopulated (even with the new farming zones) /walloftext mode_off
  3. Btw you missed the "Server info" section on the website It's still redirecting people to an old forum thread regarding previous server start which was supposed to happen in 2016
  4. FinalFen


    I know it's not the best thread to discuss it, but previous was was closed ("Decided") I can accept the x3 rates, but tell me would you consider lowering spoil rates ? Even if they are left x1 those shorties will still be rich as fock so in my opinion max spoil chance should be x1,5 :f It's just a box class anyway:P
  5. FinalFen

    Savior's Dualbox Preferences

    Agreed as well BUT would like to give everyone at the start PA for 2 months. Why ? Because let's be honest, it's risky to donate money into fresh server when all of them die in mater of 1-3 months. I feel like making it so during first 2 months of the server everone can launch additional window would only show that our DEV`s have clear intention and aren't making yet another cash grabe server, but instead are aiming for a longterm project. Hey mate, wana tryout our server ? Well then wellcome and give it a go, we won't force you into paying for a product you can't check but if you like what we do, then in 2 months is the time where you can show some appreciation Additionally I know how big of an obstacle for some it is to begin playing on a server without a dualbox. I'm pretty sure that plenty of players just because of that issue don't even check some servers, but if you give them the dualbox at the begining where its hardest, they will invest some time and after 1-2months they will decide that they invested way too much effiort into their mains to quit now, and will stay on the server even without a box and even though previously they wouldn't even consider it. Optionally there could be some noticable discount/promo price for a PA account like 2-4 EURO for a month of PA during first 2 months
  6. Z czystej ciekawości, czy ktoś jeszcze czeka na ten serwer oprócz mnie ? Osobiście zacząłem grać ze 2 tygodnie temu na classic clubie ale ilość OE sprzętu którą Admini wpuścili na serwer trochę mnie zniechęca i pewnie dam z 1 miesiąc na próbę WarpGatowi żeby zobaczyć czy warto tu grać
  7. FinalFen


    You don't have to announce everything you do on the server Lineage 2 club has plenty of customisation of which players dont know and it's prospering quite well. The funny fact about l2 community is that everyone is crying "I want vanila not some modified crap" but in reality 95% of these people don't even know what vanila server stands for. They don't know plenty of mechanics and wouldn't be able to tell the difference if something was changed. Now I do agree that Epic Boss respawn timer is a big deal and there will be plenty of people who realise the difference, but at the same time I don't believe that it would create some kind of dissapointment and anger. People care the most about vanila working abilities, farming zones and PvP balance rest is unimportant for most.
  8. FinalFen


    Maybe you are right about the camping factor motivating players to PvP, but at the same time if you leave respawn timers like now +/- couple hours often it will generate a lot of issues with some people not having the opportunity to be here for 8h waiting for RB. Others would like to PvP for 30-60 min, kill EPIC and be free to do w/e they want. I could agree that leaving some randomness might be good, but at the same time I would make it so that EPIC can spawn somewhere between 0-60 min from his default spawn timer. And about server being international I don't know man, it feel like it's usually EU/RU only and even if we get horde of chinesse they won't care anyway since all they do is bot and sell RMT But on a more serious note, to solve such an issue you could make 2 spawning hours that rotate. One could be in the prime time in EU and the other prime time for china.
  9. FinalFen


    Hello guys, it's time for yet another wall of text sponsored by FinalFen. Today I would like to discuss something that has a great concept but cant achieve it's full potential due to iffy game mechanics - Epic Raid Bosses. Even though I heavily dislike the concept for regular raid bosses, I was always in love with the Epic bosses concept. Those epic mass PvP's at baium/antharas were always great fun and something to wait for. Often clustered rooms unlike in sieges, allowed plenty of unconventional mass pvp classes (mainly melee's) to have their share of fun, because kiting wasn't THAT big of a factor. So if the concept and design is cool, where's the issue ? Issue lays in the fact that often Epic Raids turn into Ninja Raids. They can spawn during awkward times when some/many are at work/sleeping. Instead of being a source of Epic PvP fights, they are source of laugh and frustration. Another issue is that some of raids which are rather easy to quickly bring down, dies even before most can react. Look at Ant Queen, you can send 1 high lvl party, log in couple Sorc boxes and kill the AQ before enemies will even enter the Ant Nest. In my opinion those Epic Raids should be indicators of which group/clan/ally is currently strongest on the server and let them capitilise on it instead of making some of the Epics a simple ninja fests. Another issue is that I don't feel like camping for EPICS with logged in boxes/watchers brings anything positive to the gameplay. It brings no real fun and often is just source of annoyance where someone selected by the ally need to constantly keep on checking on the other screen if boss didnt spawn already. Ok so going straight into solutions to fix mentioned by me issues: 1) SET FIXED RESPAWN TIMES FOR DIFFEREN EPICS - I.E. you could set it that if AQ spawns always at a selected hour which could be the prime online time of the server - If we had baium in the future we could set it so he spawns always at prime hour and during no-siege days only 2) IMPLEMENT NPC ANNOUNCING EPIC BOSSES RESPAWN TIMERS and TIED THEM TO THE SERVER PRIME ONLINE TIME - So in every town there could be an NPC who after triggering would give us a small window indicating how many minutes are left for each EPIC to respawn - Additionally there could be added a global Announcer informing 60 -> 30 -> minutes that EPIC will respawn soon and then announce when it actually spawns - If you didn't want to set a fix hour of respawn you could at least set it that the EPIC would spawn not earlier nor later than 2-3h from the prime time BENEFITS: 1) more great mass pvp's on the serer 2) if you think of a smart schedule you can ensure that everyday there will be a really good reason to login and get a portion of guaranteed PvP <- higher online 3) less annoyance of not being able to contest ride due to unreachable spawn hours 4) less ninja actions (it's not a freaking assasiins creed :f) DISSADVANTAGES: 1) QQ ME WANT VANILA QQ FOCK NOOB SHIET PRIWAT SERWER
  10. FinalFen

    Experimentarium discussion thread

    Not sure if I understand Experimentarium idea correct but lets give it a shot ;] Experiment: Create a Tyrant and use one of his damaging abilities on a target who is: same level / 10 levels below / 10 levels above While using abilities equip Tyrant with with no grade / c grade / a grade fists (or if its possible custom made fists with 50 - 150 - 300 dmg) And apply -5 str / +0 str / +5 str / +10 str dyes Question: What's the influence of weapon p.atk / strenght attribute / level difference on the dmg of active physical abilities Reason: I feel like this part of lineage 2 game mechanics was always unintuitive and l2 classic didn't change that feel. Yesterday friend told me that character level difference (not talking about ability level since that part is self explanatory) has a direct influence on the dmg output of physical skills what was completely new to me. Additionally I always knew that strenght and weapon p.atk had a rather low influence on physical skills but was always to lazy to check what are the actual percentages If above isn't what you expected from this section, feel free to delete my post
  11. Think this thread should get archived to not be so missleading
  12. FinalFen


    You thrown hefty ammount of good arguments there and think you got me convinced for the most part. Maybe you'r right that messing up with EXP tables won't fix mentioned by me issues. With that said I still don't think we can leave it all as it is in vanila Lineage 2 classic :f If we won't create any sort of protection/help to players who are being griefed on by nolifers server won't survive. Tell me what would be your opinion about modifying some of the spawns in usually empty (due to completely inefficient farming potential) zones ? I mean we can agree that brainless PKing of casual players can't be stopped for the most part and only real way to deal with it without a CP is to "hide" so maybe we should actually make more of these hiding spots which at the same time aren't a complete garbage when it comes to exp/hour they offer ? I feel like as long as you won't make them similar/more efficient to the current TOP farming zones, it wouldn't affect the general game/server balance while giving some sort of alternatives to people who are being all the time kicked off from different farming zones. I mean if you are getting kicked from 2-3 farming locations and only thing you are left with is some crappy road with 3 mob spawns that's not really an option/solution <- it's just a waste of time. it probably wouldn't even have to be so time consuming for Supreeme, just check like 10-15 spots and add additional couple spawns here and there. On the other hand nobody would cry about it because most of vets don't really visit these locations so they wouldn't even be able to say wether something was modified compared to vanila classic.
  13. FinalFen


    No you guys missed the point of what I was trying to say/achieve 1) This isn't a game-balancing suggeestion (I might given a wrong tag to the topic and gona change it now :P). It's mostly about how to keep a healthy server with decent online. How to make semi-casuals stay and not leave server after 2 months, while giving the hardcore grinder reason to ... hardcore grind 1) it wouldn't be longer/harder to reach 70s. It would take less EXP to get those 50-67 lvls < but these EXP "shortage" on lower levels would be put to levels 67+ meaning that yes it would take longer to lvl up from 70-75 but it would take exactly same ammount of time to level from 1-75 with or without my suggestion. The TOTAL EXP required to progress 1-75 would be exactly the same as on official classic. 2) it's not that much about balancing and making players who have less time to play compete against hardcore grinders, this suggestion is about giving a semi-casual players the "FEELING" of pleasures progression and sense of achievement. It might be a false feeling and they might still get squashed by grinders due to equip advantage, but at least they would feel like they are progressing. They wouldn't need 2 weeks but maybe a week to get from 62-63 so it wouldn't be that tedious. I'm sure of the fact that plenty of casual and unorginised players will be burned out around lvl 50s when seeing how slow the progression became and leave the server greatly decreasing server online I'm just wandering who did you play, nuker ? Yes nukers are OP in the EXP department even when soloing but not everyone wants to play them because of how boring they might get, or simply because they already played for years with them. My personal experience: So ye I agree with you Zace whole-heartedly, If you are playing in a decent party or soloing as a mage you will get to 60s in a somewhat timely manner but what about other classes and people who did not manage to find a decent group (which is quite common on lower populated servers) and decided to go some less cookie-cutter classes? You can of course say that: > it's their decision and if they wana play in such a way then let them suffer < but will it help our server ? We shouldn't lie to ourselves, we won't get 3k online on this server (and probably on any other nowadays, L2 is simply old) because of what it won't be as easy for unorginised players to find a group to play with as it is/was on official. Plenty of (casual) players will be FORCED to play solo, and we can't forget about them. If we are left without casuals, server will most likely not get above 300 online, and when sitting on such low online it's just a matter of time before it will start dropping even lower. And when saying casuals I don't mean people who can spend like a 7h a week. Im refering to people whocan invest around 20-25h a week which wouldn't be considered as a "casual" in any non MMORPG game.Just so it's clear that I'm not trying to let ppl who play an hour a day reach 60s in a matter of 3-4 months. It's ofc a different discussion subject > how EXP works when playing in a 2-4-6-9 man party and it should be looked at as well, because if you are soloing as a mage (esp with BTM) you won't have THAT big of an issues to progress, but if you are playing a class which is heavily box dependant - i.e. Warlord who needs recharger - and you won't manage to find a bigger party, soloing just with your box is just a freaking torture. If I remember correct member of a 9 man party receives only 50-55% exp less than a member of a 2 man party that at the same time has 450% less players than a CP <- it's just plain dumb.
  14. FinalFen


    Aren't you afraid of such changes unbalancing the PvP (some classes at least) ? From what I've noticed stun and debuff land rate in Classic got greatly increased. If you add some sort of charging skill to classes like BH/WS you could easily make it imba > just imagine BH or WS instantly appearing next to enemy healer and perma stunning him. 3s of stun would be enough for your party to instantly focus him and the fight would already be decided. It wouldn't involve real player skills, strategy or adaptation, you would simply target healer > use charge > use hammer crush > use 2nd stun (don't remember that name - stun attack? :f) On the other hand I'm not sure if when talking about adding gap closing ability to melee classes, you meant all/most melee classes or just WS/BH. Generally speaking teleporting/charging ability on classes like DA/TK/DAGGERS/GLADIATORS/TYRANTs/DESTROs etc in my opinion could easily make these classes OP. Imagine 2 Gladis charging on 1 healer. If they synchronise their abilities, healer has no chance of counter acting that, he just needs to accept that 2 guys will target him and bring down from full to 0 in 2s after pressing 3 abilities. Just remind yourself how catacomb PvP looked in the c6+. It's just bunch of daggers/bruisers spamming abilities on enemies. Archers never had a chance there (in a equall lvl/equip PvP). I know that NC Soft in later chronicles tryed to tackle this issue of nuker/archer range advantageand gave blink to daggers but just look what they acomplished > dagger PvP where you simply cast UE/Mirrage and charge/blink in like a dork, spaming blows without giving it any additional thoughts. Biggest player skill required to execute such PvP in many casses was to simply effectively spam CP pots and use Elixirs :f But back to the subject > I feel that it's ok that Nukers/Archers have the range advantage in open zone PvPs because they are at a heavy dissadvantage when fighting melee classes in close range (at least on the lower chronicles where HP/CP values are really low). Generally speaking I don't see almot any balancing issue in terms of nuker/archer PvP (they are stronger in open zone PvP while being weaker in close combat). Actually it's pretty acceptable. The thing which is an issue to me is the fact that during these mass PvP long-range-kiting-fights, most of non mystic/archer classes basically have nothing to do. It's boring as hell. Even classes like Tyrant/Glad who theoretically have 2 range abilities are kind of crap because of a) cooldown making the overall DPS crap as hell b) quickly runnning out of mana especially when we don't have 75+ levels and 3rd prof/s grades. Using those range abilities from Gladi/Tyrant during a siege feels simply like a waste of mana < you are using twice the mana of a nuker (while having 2 times lower mana pool) to inflict 2/3 of his dmg and then wait couple seconds to reuse). If you look at it reastically, bruiser party when using only range abilities won't have enough mana to burn out mana on 2 healers from enemy party Reference to the MOBA comparission: But once again I like your reasoning and examples. They were spot on but I have the feeling we tried to tackle different issues. So... just tell me this: when looking at the whole PvP system involving both open zone fights and a closed, corridor-like skirmishes do you really think that: the balancing aspect of the range advantage for nukers/archers is bigger issue than the fact that some classes are close to being useless and having nothing to do in the long-range PvPs < when looking from the perspective of what would make the game more fun to play and would help attract newer players/keep old players.