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FinalFen

CLASSIC EXP CURVE

Posted (edited)

As most of you already know, EXP/Leveling/Progression curve in L2 is a very tedious thing to deal with. Untill level 25 it feels too fast. between 25-47 it feels like a well ballanced leveling scheme and after lvl 47 it starts to slow down really a lot. If you are making trains in a 9 man CP it's not that bad because there are usually only like 3-4 active players while others can just rest/afk/watch some movie etc. But if you are soloing or playing in a small group the progression becomes a real pain.

Obviously people who for some reasons don't have work/school and/or don't have to spend their time with family can overcome all the difficulties and achieve high 60s in a timely matter of couple months. Problem starts when you don't have that much time to play L2 anymore. You like the game, you have good memories of PvPs in the past servers so you want to get the same feeling here on classic. There's only 1 problem: you can "only" invest 2-5 h into the game daily. In most of games 2-5h a day are actually a hefty ammount of time, allowing you to feel that you are progressing in your character development or in your personal player skills. In L2 classic with 2-5h a day, even just in the high 50s you will most likely spend over half a week if not more to get a single level. This might seem ok to hardcore grinders, but in my opinion that's the main reason to why most servers looses 30-50% of their playerbase 1-2 months after grand opening. "Casuals" realise that they don't have a real chance to reach mid 60s to be of any use in the incoming clan/CP wars so theys imply quit.

Now... opinions can definitely varry, but I believe that there aren't enough hardcore grinders nowadays to sustain a healthy server without "casual community" which is always a mojority in any online game.

 

So how to deal with this issue and make it more reachable for casuals but don't take away the grindfest which is appreciasted many, big part of this game?

My idea is to change the exp tables, so they are a bit smoother in the 50-65 and then increase the ammount of EXP required for levels 66-75 making it require exactly the same ammount of exp to get a max lvl.

 

My idea of exp table looks like this (levels below 50 stay standard/unchanged)

\LEVEL/ \TOTAL XP/ \TOTAL XP NEW/ \XP TO NEXT LVL/ \XP TO NEXT LVL NEW/ \XP TO NEXT LVL DIFF/ \XP TO NEXT LVL DIFF NEW/ \EXTRA LEVELS/
50 251 805 374 241 743 251 32 487 761 27 100 368 3 867 059 1 772 921 +0
51 288 635 909 270 740 645 36 830 535 28 997 394 4 342 774 1 897 026 +0
52 330 338 848 301 767 857 41 702 939 31 027 212 4 872 404 2 029 818 + 1
53 377 507 026 334 966 973 47 168 178 33 199 116 5 465 239 2 171 905 + 1
54 430 790 086 370 490 027 53 283 060 35 523 054 6 114 882 2 323 938 + 2
55 490 916 803 408 499 696 60 126 717 38 009 668 6 843 657 2 486 614 + 2
56 558 693 890 449 170 041 67 777 087 40 670 345 7 650 370 2 660 677 + 2
57 635 018 116 492 687 310 76 324 226 43 517 269 8 547 139 2 846 924 + 2
58 720 879 370 539 685 961 85 861 254 46 998 651 9 537 028 3 481 382 + 3
59 817 380 319 590 444 504 96 500 949 50 758 543 10 639 695 3 759 892 + 3
60 925 741 335 645 263 730 108 361 016 54 819 226 11 860 067 4 060 683 + 3
61 1 047 311 009 704 468 494 121 569 674 59 204 764 13 208 658 4 385 538 + 4
62 1 183 577 349 769 001 687 136 266 340 64 533 193 14 696 666 5 328 429 + 4
63 1 336 187 067 839 342 868 152 609 718 70 341 181 16 343 378 5 807 987 + 4
64 1 506 967 658 918 828 402 170 780 591 79 485 534 18 170 873 9 144 353 + 5
65 1 697 936 136 1 010 236 766 190 968 478 91 408 364 20 187 887 11 922 830 + 5
66 1 911 306 680 1 119 926 803 213 370 544 109 690 037 22 402 066 18 281 673 + 5
67 2 149 533 465 1 262 523 851 238 226 785 142 597 048 24 856 241 32 907 011 + 5
68 2 415 323 168 1 456 455 836 265 789 703 193 931 985 27 562 918 51 334 937 + 5
69 2 711 646 440 1 731 839 255 296 323 272 275 383 419 30 533 569 81 451 434 + 4
70 3 041 801 165 2 098 099 202 330 154 725 366 259 947 33 831 453 90 876 528 + 4
71 3 409 398 455 2 555 557 876 367 597 290 457 458 674 37 442 565 91 198 727 + 3
72 3 818 421 441 3 104 508 285 409 022 986 548 950 409 41 425 696 91 491 735 + 2
73 4 273 257 148 3 746 780 264 454 835 707 642 271 978 45 812 721 93 321 570 + 2
74 4 778 730 308 4 487 962 127 505 473 160 741 181 863 50 637 453 98 909 885 + 1
75 5 340 152 664 5 340 152 664 561 422 356 852 190 537 55 949 196 111 008 674 + 0

Small explanation:

NEW - means values changed and proposed by me

TOTAL EXP - total ammount of experience character needs to gather to be on selected lvl

XP TO NEXT LEVEL - ammount of exp require to advance to the next level

XP TO NEXT LEVEL DIFF - difference between ammount of EXP that was required to gain previous level and to get new level i.e. if leveling to level 10 > requires 10 EXP and to level 11 > requires 15 EXP then difference between ammount of EXP you need to acquire will be 5 EXP

EXTRA LEVELS - means how many more levels will player have with particular TOTAL EXP when using proposed by me EXP table compared to the level that player would have when using classic EXP table.

As you can see in suggested by me exp table (columns with "NEW" in the names) Total ammount of EXP required to achieve 75 level is exact then same, meaning that there won't be less farming, it's just that players will get a bit faster these mid-60 levels allowing them to at least have a real chance of participating in server PvPs even when being semi-casual. Such EXP tables at the same time make it a lot less annoying to see how badly exp is slowing down. It won't happen in the 50s where it might be harder to find good farming zones, but it will occur around mid-60s where in my opinion there are a lot more/better areas to farm.

Now I do realise that faster progression during 50-65 might mean a shortage of good equipment in this level bracket, but in my opinion less exp required will suplement for the slightly slower mob killing sspeed due to lack of better equipment. Additionally once someone reaches 65-67 when it starts to slow down a lot (according to my suggestions) such player will have plenty of time to actually farm A grades. He spends less time in the levels where you farm B grades and then spends more time farming A grades. This will help with the shortage of TOP END gear which always occurs on the young servers.

Now some graphs for people who don't like numbers :)

2.JPG.7cff5386984ce02111be9f04173ba5a7.JPG

RED LINE - indicates how much XP we need to gain new level in classic. As we can see around level 50 it starts to constantly rise by quite a lot and at level 59+ it's a really big increase of EXP that you have to acquire to gain new level

GREEN LINE - indicates how much XP we need to gain new level according to modified by me tables

As you can see it's a lot smoother in the 50-63 levels and start to incrase drastically above 67 level. It means that we would be getting these earlier levels faster but then the progression would slow down a lot so that in the end we would have to gather same ammount of EXP to achieve top levels. Leveling overall wouldn't be faster, it's just that you would be getting earlier levels faster and then work harder for those really high levels.

3.JPG.776617097cca3a5185c9f704678c38ce.JPG

When looking at TOTAL EXP that a player needs to acquire to reach particular levels we can see that in both classic and my modified EXP chart, game requires you to gather same ammount of EXP to obtain higher levels. As mentioned before it's slightly smoother in the mid levels, allowing less grandish people to get these minimal required levels to enjoy mass PvP`s, while still giving hardcore grinders a reason to spend their entire day fighting mobs.

Before you guys will start answearing (flaming? :)) in this thread I would like you to understand only 1 thing. My suggestion of altering the EXP tables isn't here because I like to change everything. It's not because I want to make the gameplay to fit my needs either. It's because I'm seriously concerned that most low rate servers using the classic XP tables won't be able to motivate casual-ish people to play longer than 1-2 month and without them you will end up having 100-200 online on the server. Trust me even hardcore grinders need the casuals because without those, who you gona wreck on PvP ? ;]

Edited by FinalFen
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If it's gonna be x5 this isn't necessary at all, I had no problems getting 60+ playing solo on the last x5 server. The levels after 60 should take a bit longer, that's how L2 always was, it encourages people to clan up at higher levels and find people to group with. 

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Posted (edited)

With this idea you basically make it easier for casual players to reach lvl50 - 70 and harder to reach 70-75.

I dont get the point... reach high 60s you still wont have much of a say in the server PvPs.

Gear will own you... the big clans will have perfectly SAd weapons... talismans of baium and such over time of course, not immediately.

 

As a potential solo player (unknow how many friends of mine would come here), i want to be able to reach 60s as well as 70s as well as level 80 at some point.

Your suggestion could be useful but... it doesnt take away the grind, it just procrastinates it :D

It wouldnt work here but my personal way is to do the hard work first and then have a rest after the hard work("weekend")

Edited by gszell91
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Posted (edited)

No you guys missed the point of what I was trying to say/achieve :P

1) This isn't a game-balancing suggeestion (I might given a wrong tag to the topic and gona change it now :P). It's mostly about how to keep a healthy server with decent online. How to make semi-casuals stay and not leave server after 2 months, while giving the hardcore grinder reason to ... hardcore grind :D

1) it wouldn't be longer/harder to reach 70s. It would take less EXP to get those 50-67 lvls < but these EXP "shortage" on lower levels would be put to levels 67+ meaning that yes it would take longer to lvl up from 70-75 but it would take exactly same ammount of time to level from 1-75 with or without my suggestion. The TOTAL EXP required to progress 1-75 would be exactly the same as on official classic.

2) it's not that much about balancing and making players who have less time to play compete against hardcore grinders, this suggestion is about giving a semi-casual players the "FEELING" of pleasures progression and sense of achievement. It might be a false feeling and they might still get squashed by grinders due to equip advantage, but at least they would feel like they are progressing. They wouldn't need 2 weeks but maybe a week to get from 62-63 so it wouldn't be that tedious. I'm sure of the fact that plenty of casual and unorginised players will be burned out around lvl 50s when seeing how slow the progression became and leave the server greatly decreasing server online

10 hours ago, Zace said:

If it's gonna be x5 this isn't necessary at all, I had no problems getting 60+ playing solo on the last x5 server. The levels after 60 should take a bit longer, that's how L2 always was, it encourages people to clan up at higher levels and find people to group with. 

I'm just wandering who did you play, nuker ? Yes nukers are OP in the EXP department even when soloing but not everyone wants to play them because of how boring they might get, or simply because they already played for years with them.

My personal experience:

 

My personal experience coming from warpgate was quite different. I decided to go with the Warlord. Spent like a month on warpgate forums trying to get any sort of CP/semi-CP or simply a bunch of people to play with and not die to boredom. Didn't manage to do so due to groups already being full/people not being interested in grouping or not playing at my hours (EU eveninig - GMT+1). After server start, around lvl 30-33 I managed to find a "clan". Oh boy what a suffer it was to communicate with them. I spent at least 3 h during a weak chatting just in order to try and gather/establish some party. Nobody was interested. I was playing a Warlord so I should be attracting all sorts of mele/archers (and it was a dd clan for the most part) like flies, to join me and get some cool Train EXP. After trying for week or two to get anything going with this clan, I came back to trying to look for some random people who would like to group. During 1 week of looking for party I managed to make 1 - with a orc shaman and palus knight...

So after reaching 40s and doing my 2nd class quest I've abandonded the idea of playing with people as it was a simply waste of my keyboard trying to communicate. It slowed down by quite a lot, but I managed to get to that 45 (maybe after a month(?) of playing 3-4 h daily). There weren't any good spots for WL to farm outside of the area around Ivory Tower so I went there. Was doing some fun trains (exp was mostly crap because I had to lvl my SE constantly) but w/e, I had all of the great memories from the good old L2 days in the past that fuelled my will to play/farm. So after I reached the 45+ levels and went to farm near Ivory Tower was when my future on the server was sealed since group of people around that area decided it's cool to start PK`ing ppl for no reason (other than - I don't want you to progress!). So this carebear necro picker on a semi-full buff PK'ed me, no big deal it happens, they prob went further. So I came back, made 3 trains and got PK`ed again. After 3rd time I decided to call it a day. During the next day I started doing tranis again, exp wasn't awesome but I could make over 1 level a day at this pace so I told to myself it's doable. Then I got PK`ed again. Each PK meant -4% (10 minutes of farm?) + additional 6 min of getting back to spot and setting everything up. After some time I realised that with how slowly it's starting to be and how carebear some PK`ers are I'll get to 65 maybe in a year or two, so sadly it was the time to move on ...

So ye I agree with you Zace whole-heartedly, If you are playing in a decent party or soloing as a mage you will get to 60s in a somewhat timely manner but what about other classes and people who did not manage to find a decent group (which is quite common on lower populated servers) and decided to go some less cookie-cutter classes? You can of course say that: > it's their decision and if they wana play in such a way then let them suffer < but will it help our server ?

We shouldn't lie to ourselves, we won't get 3k online on this server (and probably on any other nowadays, L2 is simply old) because of what it won't be as easy for unorginised players to find a group to play with as it is/was on official. Plenty of (casual) players will be FORCED to play solo, and we can't forget about them. If we are left without casuals, server will most likely not get above 300 online, and when sitting on such low online it's just a matter of time before it will start dropping even lower.

And when saying casuals I don't mean people who can spend like a 7h a week. Im refering to people whocan invest around 20-25h a week which wouldn't be considered as a "casual" in any non MMORPG game.Just so it's clear that I'm not trying to let ppl who play an hour a day reach 60s in a matter of 3-4 months.

It's ofc a different discussion subject > how EXP works when playing in a 2-4-6-9 man party and it should be looked at as well, because if you are soloing as a mage (esp with BTM) you won't have THAT big of an issues to progress, but if you are playing a class which is heavily box dependant - i.e. Warlord who needs recharger - and you won't manage to find a bigger party, soloing just with your box is just a freaking torture. If I remember correct member of a 9 man party receives only 50-55% exp less than a member of a 2 man party that at the same time has 450% less players than a CP <- it's just plain dumb.

Edited by FinalFen

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1. Actually u cant save the server. Even if u want, no matter what u do, you cant save the server.

Ppl who "burnout" at lvl50 trying to make 51 and it takes too much time, are just weak mentally. L2 is not the game for weak ppl who give up. These kinda guys will leave no matter what, if not at lvl50 then at lvl65 with rebalancing XP requirements.

I had a guy, who was lvl62+ on a new server in 1.5, doing a mage it was all fun and 1 day i logged in, and his char (on friendlist) was lvl40. I heard that he broke his demon staff to like +6 or +7 and he quit. Im just utterly disappointed, but these ppl are weak.

2. It is highly possible to XP solo with a warlord with SE buffs. Absolutely. Ppl are retarded and will PK you of course for no reason at all, and that will make ppl leave but honestly there is nohing you can do about it. Thats why i didnt start warlord but BH, becoz with BH i hit 1 mob at a time with blunt, and i dont need to do trains -> smaller area needed for me, less mobs -> more hidden -> i can consider places to grind where you would not want to. I also got PKed sometimes, but not that often. It is a pain in the ass, and i hate it also, but there is nothing i can do about it.

If i was supreme and i saw any1 really abusing the PK system i would ban the individual person and make it like 100$ to buyback the character. And 1000$ next time. But he wont do the becoz ppl are gona be crying that PK is part of the game, and dont be carebare and dont cry on forum and sh1t. So pretty much solo players are destined to lose motivation, destined to get PKed, and the server is destined to die out slowly. Unless it finds a very hardcore group of ppl just like on L2 Dawn where the main clans mostly stayed there for 2 years. And left only when server closed down. If that doesnt happen ppl will leave. And i think they will, becoz shortly after this one, L2 Dex will open a server. And ppl will go there if thats any good. Chronicle numbers might win the battle here if Warp starts in 2.1 i would personally not leave for a crappy 1.5 l2 dex...

I think i said everthing pretty much.

I understand what u mean by this XP rebalancing stuff, but it might be better to leave it as it is now, it is hard but groups get ahead. And that means that group get the hell out of those areas. Like CPs advance faster and they leave the entrance of dragon valley, they go in, so they wont kill casuals (becoz anytime u go "close" to a CP you will die). So they will only kill casuals if they  PK out of boredom or whatever. But thats a more rare case.

Than CPs will advance to even higher levels and go inside antharas lair, then almost the entire dragon valley will be "free"

+there are plenty of other places, you just need to hide. Its not good but agian:  it wont change, ppl wont do anythign different, ppl will puerposedly ruin others games, and Supreme wont do anything about PKers, i can almost bet my entire bank account balance on this. Ive never ever seen 1 GM that would stand up against shitheads PKing lowlevel guys.

Or implementing that newbie protection buff for higher levels, so you cant be killed by some1 10lvls lower than you. That would help. But he wont do it, becoz its custom then and those who want to ruin others life, will oppose this decision saying that "oh its custom server, and i want retail server blablabla".

 

Than another solution would be to join a big clan, 1 of the top clans, and then u wont get PKed, but thats also not true becoz

1. They wont recruit you, coz they only take CPs (ye i know its dumb, but whatever...its true nevertheless)

2. If they recruit you, then you wont get PKed but they have 9999999clans with active wars so you wont have a peace of mind anyways.

 

They just cant accept that there are peaceful players, who are not belligerent and dont wanna fihgt all the time. Or some never want to fight and thats ok. They play on the markets or craft or whatever.

Assholes will never accept those ppl and will ruin their lives/PK them etc...and if they complain about it on forum, then they wil humiliate them as well like "stop crying" or my favourite: "aceptwar"

sh1t just by writing this i already dont wanna play L2 :D

 

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You thrown hefty ammount of good arguments there and  think you got me convinced for the most part. Maybe you'r right that messing up with EXP tables won't fix mentioned by me issues. With that said I still don't think we can leave it all as it is in vanila Lineage 2 classic :f If we won't create any sort of protection/help to players who are being griefed on by nolifers server won't survive.

Tell me what would be your opinion about modifying some of the spawns in usually empty (due to completely inefficient farming potential) zones ? I mean we can agree that brainless PKing of casual players can't be stopped for the most part and only real way to deal with it without a CP is to "hide" so maybe we should actually make more of these hiding spots which at the same time aren't a complete garbage when it comes to exp/hour they offer ? I feel like as long as you won't make them similar/more efficient to the current TOP farming zones, it wouldn't affect the general game/server balance while giving some sort of alternatives to people who are being all the time kicked off from different farming zones.

I mean if you are getting kicked from 2-3 farming locations and only thing you are left with is some crappy road with 3 mob spawns that's not really an option/solution <- it's just a waste of time.

it probably wouldn't even have to be so time consuming for Supreeme, just check like 10-15 spots and add additional couple spawns here and there. On the other hand nobody would cry about it because most of vets don't really visit these locations so they wouldn't even be able to say wether something was modified compared to vanila classic.

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Yeah, that can be good to increase mob spawn numbers in locations in certain areas.

But then after lvl50-60 it is going to get easier its not 1.5 anymore where there is a Dragon Valley, and an Antharas Lair, and its kinda hard to hide in there. And it also kinda hard to solo. Tho it is safer, becoz only CPs go there and CPs dont waste time for PKing only if u go close. And 1-2 characters wont go deep in DV without active supports, its just hard. They did it only once in the 1.5 server where i played. Other than that it was peaceful, and i could solo there.

Also there was a Forbidden gateway but too easy to approach becoz there is a GK port there in the midle. Actually making more teleport locations favors the PKers. Coz they can travel around easier.

Obviously: if u are 2-3 guys u wanna go hunt, you go to the same direction. And if u have to run u run a lot to 1 direction. Manwhile 3 other locations farm peacefully. You kill guys in first spot and go to second. The last 2 still farms peacefully and u already spent 30mins. etc... But if u have GK ports u just port there, run a little, get a few kills, 3minutes later u are in the 2nd zone.

 

In 2.1 there ar emore options available:

 - The enterity of Tower of Insolence!

 - Blazing Swamp for outsiders

 - Catacombs/necros coming back only for high lvls 60/70s, and i think 4 of them. Those tend to be harder to gank with archers/wizards, they wont solo gank u in there only with party.

 - Antharas Lair is still a thing (tho for farming TOI is preferred)

 - Im not sure but probably there is going to be Giants Cave too

 - by the time Warpgate launches Goddard update will be out, i think by the time the first ppl hit 70, we will have ketra/varka ready as well

Plenty of locations to farm/spread out the ppl, plenty of locations to hide, Forbidden Gateway still exists, up to lvl70, devastated castle or whatever they call it, also up to 70 possibly.

They just can not PK everywhere at the same time.

 

But its not rly about convincing some1 or not. And about that adding more spawn locations for mobs and reworking XP table or helping lowbies/solo players, if i was a GM/Dev i would do it without announcing it.

Because if u announce it, ppl will cry that its now custom server which is bullshit, you added a few more mobs into a dead empty spot, who cares, especially for low lvls, no1 would even notice it, except for those 5-10 guys who need to hide from assholes trying to PK them. And they wouldnt tell obviously :D Or they wouldnt even recognise that its not retail like.

But i dont have good experience with reworking xp and such, and i think i would solve the low level abusing problem through negotiation/punishments and such. Id just initiate conversations with leaders of big clans, talk to them about this issue. And for those ppl that just login to make a clan to PK/abuse low lvls, id abuse them as a GM :D
As they are trying to chase lowbies, put on them all debuffs possible, cancel all of their buffs, and maybe spawn some strong agressive mob and watch them being owned instead of the low lvls.

There are always those few cancerous players, its not a big loss for the server if they are banned/leave/jailed.

These should sort out the low level protection issue.

Btw there are HUUUUUGE, INSANELY HUGE empty spots.

Just look at between farming spots, like walk out of execution grounds, towards giran, there is little to no life, never ever seen a player there, i just walked thru there to see what spawns there.

The other where you walk out of gludio, there used to be monsters in like C4, between gludio and that ruins of despair (?) and now there is nothing, just maybe the 1/2 HP lizardmens the other way around.

So there are opportinities to implement mobs to certain areas.

 

And about walking around/looking for new areas to farm, when u grow out of one zone, is hard :D And i spent a lot of time running around in the world, every few lvls, trying where is the best for me.

But these zones that have like slightly pumped up spawn zones, and more mobs, wont be similar to top farming zones surely :D

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