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FinalFen

pvp balance
[BALANCE] RANGE vs MELE

I would like to ask all of the people who are going to post in this thread to restrain themselves from throwing out meaningless posts like "shit change, me want vanila classic" but instead explain why you think so while giving constructive arguments. In the end we all want to make this server work and be a fun place to play.

 

I would like to discuss here a well-known issue which often leads to a very 1-sided PvP with only 3 type of classes being really usable (archer/nuker/support) while rendering others (mele fighters) completely inefficient.

 

BOW/NUKE RANGE

As we all know in the full buff and open zones PvP combination of 900 range on attacks and crazy DPS make's it so only archers and nukers can compete on a even basis. Most of mele type characters who think about closing the 900 distance in 98% of scenarios will die before even closing the gap. In my opinion this is a very flawed PvP concept heavily promoting/encouraging players to pick only 2 type of classes if they are thinking of being a factor in mass PvPs (excluding universal supports).

This wouldn't be that big of an issue in games where players can easily switch classes or without that big of an investment can create new characters of a different class. In L2, once somebody decides to play a Tyrant he will have to spend months if not years in order to get his character into the late game state. Some hardcore grinders without a full time job/school can probably do it and create 2 or maybe 3 different classes to make themselves strong in small area PvPs, on Oly and in Mass PvP, but for most of the players it's not an option - at least not in a reasonable time frame.

So what can we do about it and how to balance out this situation ?

  1. Decrease autoattack/nuke range
  2. Heavily Increase movement speed
  3. Increase autoattack range for fighter classes

1. Decrease autoattack/nuke range - this solution might seem to be the most obvious one, but I definitely wouldn't suggest it because it forces a number of different and unwanted balance changes:

  • impacts fighting mobs, because nukers/archer will have smaller distance advantage on a mob, resulting in mob closing the gap faster and inflicting more dmg than it usually would do (CP's won't feel it, but solo players will)
  • impacts efficiency of aoe skills because smaller range will mean that during bigger PvP fights, players will tend to stack on each other a lot more, thus resulting in AoE skills coming from classes like Warlord or Overlord becoming a lot stronger (and even without such change they are already really powerfull)

2.  Heavy increase of movement speed - this one is very tricky as well and I wouldn't suggest it:

  • impacts farming efficiency speed - faster/safer trains, easier to escape from mobs
  • gives some classes unwanted synergy benefits, where classes like Tyrant or TH with dash, when factoring the increased movement speed could be so fast that it would make it hard for other players to target them

3. Increase autoattack range for fighter classes - this in my opinion is a jackpot solution.

How it would work:

classes without bow attack range increase passive would gain the ability to attack from 900 range just like archers/mages do but with decreased dmg/penalty

  • when distance to attacked target is less than 600 - deal their regular dmg like it is now (nothing changes)
  • when distance to attacked target is more than 600 deal reduced dmg: 10-13% less dmg dealt for every 100 units over 600, this would mean that if a Gladiator wanted to attack with a bow target who was 900 units away, he would deal only 61-70% of his regular dmg with a bow

Why do I think this change won't unbalance the game:

Remember all fighter classes (excluding dagggers who might get a small overlook if such change was to be implemented) have already a rather low dmg with a bow due to lack of weapon mastery skills. Ofc this difference is negligable on lower levels but above 60s it's easy to notice the difference. At level 70 classes without a bow mastery are dealing probably around 70(?)% of a regular archer dmg  (might be even less when factoring crit passives) so if you factor into that 70% additional 30-39% decrease coming from the long range penalty, such classes would deal only 42-50% of the dmg that a regular archer does.

50% is to small to make particular class strong with a bow, but at the same time it's enough to make it worthwile for those BDs/SWs/TANKs/Warlords etc to attack their enemies from distance when they don't have a real chance to close the gap and start attacking in mele range. Basically it would give people something to do in a mass PvP other than die while trying to close the gap. Damn if someone was bored, even a Prophet/Warcryer or a healer could start having their fun hitting ppl with a bow (but those would prob do only 24-30% dmg due the low STR attribute). Generally it would make the game feel more fluid, less 1 sided, and players who decided to pick a melee class because they like it, wouldn't get excluded from open zone PvPs.

You could translate it like this: if fighter does 0,5 of archers dmg (and ofc archer does 1,0 of archers dmg), it means that:

  • Standard archer party with Buffer+Healer has 6 DPS (5 archers + sws and bd with a bow)
  • Standard mele party with Buffer+healer has 3,5 DPS (5 mele fighters with a bow and sws+bd with a bow)

As you can see a regular archer party fighting at max range in an open PvP would still have a great edge (twice the DPS) over regular fighters party and would be heavily favored. But this way a fighter party at least has a tiny chance of actually outplaying the archer party with their kiting skills and winning the fight.

Benefits of such a change:

  1. Every class becomes somewhat usefull during PvPs vs archers/mages
  2. Players who want to play non archer/nuker class wouldn't be that heavily discouraged/excluded from mass PvPs
  3. Creates more fighting scenarios and refreshes PvP schemes (nowadays PvP usually looks very repetitive)
  4. Makes it a lot more interesting to play some usually boring (to some) support classes (thus encouraging going main supports/crafters/spoilers over having only as boxes)

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Actually i dont think it needs changing.
What you say is true early game, with laaaaarge open fields and then archers can own you - true.

But once u get into cruma tower they are restricted. Antharas Lair = just try to run away:D enjoy being gangraped by mobs (and dropping ur life)
ToI also similar thing.
Other than that most classes have at least something to do vs rangeds: aggression on tanks, warlord has ranged stun atk, even gladi has ranged stun atk,  daggers have hide, tyrant has rush, destro has demolition impact or w/e its called. Its just the bounty hunter/warsmith that have nothing (NEEDS CHANGING) and BD/SWS but they are supports anyways.
The way aggression works for example is it should force the enemy to run towards you for 2 seconds, which is great anyways. And should even cancel spellcasting.

 

The biggest problem with archers is they dont come alone. Or mages, they also dont come alone.
They come like gypsies u know ^^ You hit one, it brings the entire family :D
When i was farming with my friends, small party, 2-3 active ppl, even some boxes, we didnt die becoz of range, we died becoz they came with 7 active, fullbuff, hihger lvl, higher gear, prepared and start with stunshot. Before we even see they are coming coz we are in the middle of a conversation about something totally different lol...

What i would discourage is PK/this abuse of power from big clans.

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Posted (edited)

 

Ok, I hear what you are saying but:

8 hours ago, gszell91 said:

[...]But once u get into cruma tower they are restricted. Antharas Lair = just try to run away:D enjoy being gangraped by mobs (and dropping ur life)
ToI also similar thing.

What about Sieges, what about Baium/Anthy fight? What about fights in Ant Queen nest ? :)

These are very important part of the server PvP as it gives the playerbase very big incentive  to do something else than grind and at the same time generates extremely important resources <- EPIC jewlery

In higher chronicles with nobless buff, walking UD's, ally invulnurability from OLs, you could indeed run in middle of enemy group without getting destroyed from afar, but on classic, without that kind of stuff it will be hard (impossible) to run in as a melee into the archer/nuker deathball.

 

8 hours ago, gszell91 said:

Other than that most classes have at least something to do vs rangeds: aggression on tanks, warlord has ranged stun atk, even gladi has ranged stun atk,  daggers have hide, tyrant has rush, destro has demolition impact or w/e its called. Its just the bounty hunter/warsmith that have nothing (NEEDS CHANGING) and BD/SWS but they are supports anyways.
The way aggression works for example is it should force the enemy to run towards you for 2 seconds, which is great anyways. And should even cancel spellcasting.

Agreed that most of classes have "something" to do even in such range only PvP, but do you really believe that casting a force buster every couple(teen) seconds is really what people enjoy and consider fun PvP? :) Don't know man, I spent quite some time playing tyrant in the past and limiting myself just to usage of these long range skills felt boredom (I know that the cooldown got reduced on classic but still you won't kill anyone when casting a 1.5k dmg ability every 8 seconds) and insanely underwhelming because your DPS was marginal due to the cooldown restrictions and in the end you would just run out of mana after 30s before killing someone :f Constant swapping between bow, fists and skills was what made the hero insanely fun to play for me.

And please don't just say that SWS/BD are just supports so it's ok for them to be boring to play. It's one of the reasons to why so few players without a CP decide to pick classes, and it's the reason to why creating good parties with random people is close to impossible nowadays :<

 

8 hours ago, gszell91 said:

The biggest problem with archers is they dont come alone. Or mages, they also dont come alone.
They come like gypsies u know ^^ You hit one, it brings the entire family :D

Good one ;]

Anyways tell me why exactly you wouldn't want such a change to be implemented. I know that you feel like you can do something on each class during mass PvP and I agree with that although "something" has a definitely different meaning for us both :P But why do you think that such optional mechanic (if someone doesn't like it, he simply doesn't have to use a bow from long range) wouldn't enchance the gameplay and/or wouldn't be healthy for the game.

For me it's simple, if you think that you don't need the ability to attack with a bow from full range as a i.e. tyrant, you can simply not do so, but if you feel like your class can't actively participate in mass PvPs, now you would actually have an option to get some fun there.

Maybe you are afraid of unbalancing some classes (which) or something else of what I didnt think of is your concern?

Edited by FinalFen

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On 18/07/2017 at 0:15 PM, FinalFen said:

(...)

OMG!!! It's bullshit.. The server will remain as it should be, that's it, that's all.

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Posted (edited)

Appreciate your childish communicational skills and complete lack of any logical argumentation or reasoning.

(if I could ask a MOD, please remove from above post the quote of my entire opening message as it only spams the thread)

Edited by FinalFen

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Classes that cant pvp properly, needs skill to be added. Melee classes that are not pvp oriented should have a gap closing skill like rush, demolition impact, hide, shadowstep etc...

Personally i would add a hide to bounty hunters without a moment hesitation. (Bounty Hunter ~ Treasure Hunter right?) But perhaps rush seems more logical if u put them in the class of warriors (destroyers, tyrants, gladiators thay all have something, why BHs dont?) And this BH class is just 1 example, that i was crippled with in 1.5

Lets look at other game Dota 2.

You can have melee heroes, but all players can make money in game, and if they make 2250 gold or smth like that they can buy the item called "Blink Dagger". And if u click that item, you teleport lets say 1300 units (not sure of the exact number) into that direction where u click or exactly that point on the screen where u clicked if that is less than 1300 units away from you.

Which means all classes have a chance of closing the gap, so sooner or later they can do something, even if during the early levels they are just owned by ranged classes. This is balancing the game.

Also rangeds are more squishy (true for L2 also), but in Dota 2 they can buy other items, that make them more evasive/survivable etc...

 

In L2 its bad, becoz u start a dwarf fighter, u are not able to close the distance and u wont ever ever be able to jump next to that fkin mage shooting at you. You are destined to suffer till the end of times... and u cant do sh1t about it, other than grouping up or atking from unseen/unexpected directions.

So in short, i would want to implement changes but i dont think any of yours would be good.

 - Id not decrease bow/spell range

 - Id not increase autoattack range/skill range for melees.

 - Moving speed increase would make some sense but its not the solution.

 

We already have the answers in L2 for melee vs ranged. There are skills developed by NCSoft added to melees to overcome distance. Just need to add them to classes that have nothing. (rush, demolition impact, hide, shadowstep)

If we were to add some of these on melees classes that dont already have at least 1 ranged spell to do something. So for example Shillien Knight is fine becoz it has a spell at lvl58 that can anchor and make damage from distance (tho not so long distance). And cubics, and freezing strike, and agro, and mass agro. So probly SK doesnt need a rush.

But a BH surely does. It has nothing at all when it comes to range. It a rly good character, i liked playing it on L2 Red but its way too 1 sided (farmer)

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Posted (edited)

Aren't you afraid of such changes unbalancing the PvP (some classes at least) ?

From what I've noticed stun and debuff land rate in Classic got greatly increased. If you add some sort of charging skill to classes like BH/WS you could easily make it imba > just imagine BH or WS instantly appearing next to enemy healer and perma stunning him. 3s of stun would be enough for your party to instantly focus him and the fight would already be decided. It wouldn't involve real player skills, strategy or adaptation, you would simply target healer > use charge > use hammer crush > use 2nd stun (don't remember that name - stun attack? :f)

On the other hand I'm not sure if when talking about adding gap closing ability to melee classes, you meant all/most melee classes or just WS/BH. Generally speaking teleporting/charging ability on classes like DA/TK/DAGGERS/GLADIATORS/TYRANTs/DESTROs etc in my opinion could easily make these classes OP. Imagine 2 Gladis charging on 1 healer. If they synchronise their abilities, healer has no chance of counter acting that, he just needs to accept that 2 guys will target him and bring down from full to 0 in 2s after pressing 3 abilities. Just remind yourself how catacomb PvP looked in the c6+. It's just bunch of daggers/bruisers spamming abilities on enemies. Archers never had a chance there (in a equall lvl/equip PvP). 

I know that NC Soft in later chronicles tryed to tackle this issue of nuker/archer range advantageand gave blink to daggers but just look what they acomplished > dagger PvP where you simply cast UE/Mirrage and charge/blink in like a dork, spaming blows without giving it any additional thoughts. Biggest player skill required to execute such PvP in many casses was to simply effectively spam CP pots and use Elixirs :f

But back to the subject > I feel that it's ok that Nukers/Archers have the range advantage in open zone PvPs because they are at a heavy dissadvantage when fighting melee classes in close range (at least on the lower chronicles where HP/CP values are really low). Generally speaking I don't see almot any balancing issue in terms of nuker/archer PvP (they are stronger in open zone PvP while being weaker in close combat). Actually it's pretty acceptable.

The thing which is an issue to me is the fact that during these mass PvP long-range-kiting-fights, most of non mystic/archer classes basically have nothing to do. It's boring as hell. Even classes like Tyrant/Glad who theoretically have 2 range abilities are kind of crap because of a) cooldown making the overall DPS crap as hell b) quickly runnning out of mana especially when we don't have 75+ levels and 3rd prof/s grades. Using those range abilities from Gladi/Tyrant during a siege feels simply like a waste of mana < you are using twice the mana of a nuker (while having 2 times lower mana pool) to inflict 2/3 of his dmg and then wait couple seconds to reuse). If you look at it reastically, bruiser party when using only range abilities won't have enough mana to burn out mana on 2 healers from enemy party

Reference to the MOBA comparission:

 

With that said I liked your comparission to Dota. It was definitely a good example and blink dagger would be cool in L2, but there's 1 issue. In Lineage 2 there would be no counter to it. In MOBA games once somebody blinks on your squishy allies there's a lot of things that you can do in order to save your teammate. Your allies can quikcly disable the enemy, cast protective abilities on ally. Attacked person can as well itemise to make him somewhat resistant to such initation (tanky items/cc immunity). In L2 there's no counterplay. Healer can't buy tanky items (I mean ofc he can, but then he will be crap due to c.speed and even in Doom heavy he will die rather fast anyways due to low HP pool), there aren't any protective abilities to save the teammate (outside of heals from another healer). I feel like charging abilities would imbalance the current crappy PvP system even more + most of players when playing the server would be like > "WTF is this custom charging ability I wana play official like server not some l2java server!". When implementing 900 bow range for all, most people wouldn't even realise such change was made unless Supreem wanted to heavily advertise it ofc :F

But once again I like your reasoning and examples. They were spot on but I have the feeling we tried to tackle different issues. So... just tell me this: when looking at the whole PvP system involving both open zone fights and a closed, corridor-like skirmishes do you really think that:

the balancing aspect of the range advantage for nukers/archers is bigger issue than the fact that some classes are close to being useless and having nothing to do in the long-range PvPs < when looking from the perspective of what would make the game more fun to play and would help attract newer players/keep old players.

Edited by FinalFen

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Quote

 

If you add some sort of charging skill to classes like BH/WS you could easily make it imba

 

So what? :D

Tyrant already has rush tho at lvl76 only. But he can shoot until then from distance and that skill can crit (BIIIIIG BIG CRIT), and runs fast as well.

Destro has demolition impact, doesnt run fast, but has a 5 sec invincibility skill, which then heals himself like 30% after that 5 sec.

Gladis have range stun attack (and stun atk chance is big on classic) + they can run fast with 1 skill they have + heavy armor + etc

Warlords have agro and also that ranged polearm stun atk that also causes dmg.

Daggers have Hide and dash, and shadowstep and whatnot + they are fast running.

 

So these classes are already OP as hell, however dorfs?

Have nothing, run slowly, dont have magic resist skill, just physical resist, and not as much as tanks, just like gladis, have no ranged stun/agro anything at all, and no gap closing skill.

So the class is pretty much a meatshield in PVP unless it can get close. For me it seems unfair...

Other than dorfs, only SWS/BD have such issues, but they have at least dances/songs and agression.

 

Quote

 

So... just tell me this: when looking at the whole PvP system involving both open zone fights and a closed, corridor-like skirmishes do you really think that:

the balancing aspect of the range advantage for nukers/archers is bigger issue than the fact that some classes are close to being useless and having nothing to do in the long-range PvPs < when looking from the perspective of what would make the game more fun to play and would help attract newer players/keep old players.

 

I dont know and honestly it doesnt really matter, becoz most ppl will not play BH, just kill those few who they meet on the road and forget about them entirely. Most players will play mage/archer or at least some OP classes and they dont wanna see spoilers being of any use, so they will naturally say no to any change, even if they have no real arguments. (Like they cant possibly have one)

So its like being at a crappy workplace, nothing is ever going to change for the better, the only solution is to leave.

In this case ill not play a spoiler, even tho i kinda like it in PVE, i dont wanna suffer in PVP/Oly, so instead ill do SK. Or at least now i think SK is the way to go, but we have plenty of time to test it.

Then with these new +400crit rate runes, i might as well make a solo Overlord and own mobs with weapon :D And it will work :D

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